January 29, 2009
California and the Fight Against Equal Rights
A private school in California expelled two sixteen year old girls for having a lesbian relationship. With Umbridge-like strokes of reckless oppression, school officials conducted this expulsion without solid evidence that the girls actually had a romantic relationship. But even if they did have such evidence, is the school allowed to expel them?
While the girls sued, an appeals court in California ruled in favor of the school’s “right” to expel them. The court said that the since the school is religious and not a business they had every right to expel the students for “homosexual behavior.” Would the court say the same thing if the students were expelled because they were black? Perhaps eighty years ago they would. Would the court say the same thing if the students were expelled for being white? Or how about if the students were expelled for being heterosexual? The court probably wouldn’t have ruled this way. Because essentially this case does not strike me to be exclusively about a schools’ rights. This case is about the rights of students. Or lack thereof. Apparently if I ran a religious school that thought white heterosexuals were sinful, I could expel them.
Within the last six months, California has stripped it’s own citizens of their right to marry and now ruled in favor of a school’s right to be violent and hateful to minorities. Salazar Slytherin would be proud. What do you think?
Sash1113
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I’m sorry- even my conservative Catholic high school accepted that they had a gay student. Granted, he never had a boyfriend who went to our school, but I’m sure my principal wouldn’t have expelled the student for it.
And you’re right, Andrew, our court system would not tolerate expulsion because of race or heterosexuality – religious school or not.
Jami
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I remember reading an article similar to this years ago, but a girl was expelled from her Catholic School because they found out that her mother was a lesbian and her girlfriend was living in their home.
eventually the school apologized after much hatemail, but I don’t think they took it to court. but the girl ended up attending public school despite the apology.
Jim
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Regardless of my personal feelings, if the private school is affiliated with a religion that doesn’t accept homosexuality, aren’t they constitutionally protected here?
Jen
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This is horrible. I don’t see how it is possible for someone to be expelled for doing nothing wrong. And, if it is a private school, these people probably were paying money to attend the school, they would have been paying to get an education from this school, but the school would not let them. This behavior is so frustrating and disgusting. I don’t understand how people can still think like this. For religions that are supposed to be about love and being better people, they seem to be dishing out a lot of hate.
I don’t understand how anyone can deny someone an education, or why a school should care or be involved in the personal relationships of its students
andrew
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As for constitutional protection, I don’t know. But kicking someone children/teenagers out of a school based on sexuality strikes me as child abuse. And no institution is constitutionally protected to commit child abuse.
Serendipity
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I’m going to preface this by saying that while this may sound like I’m bashing a particular religion, I am not. These attitudes prevail across religious, political, and social boundaries. This just happens to be a current example. Now that the disclaimer is over:
I have some very conservative christian friends that disagree with my beliefs and those of mutual friends of ours. One of those mutual friends happens to be homosexual. My friend (D) completely disapproves of “T”‘s choice (her phrase, not mine). But she believes that her role as a Christian is be there as a support so that when he “sees the light”, so to speak, she can help him as a friend. Of course, she believes the same when it comes to me and our religious differences.
She seems to have a fundamental difference from those at the school. She believes that through kindness and love she can “help” folks see the way. The folks at the school, and elsewhere, seem to go by what I call the caveman philosophy. they just figure that beating you over the head with the “morality” stick is going to cause you to take the right path.
That my friends, is fear, not faith. They really need to learn the difference. They are just acting like a bully out on the playground that seems to believe that if people fear them then it equates to respect. Wrong!
Black Lily
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Sorry, but the school has every right to expell them as they are a private religious institution. To force the school to allow student engaged in relationships which are contrary tothe schools disbeliefs is a violation of the first amendment, that is, prohibiting the Catholic institutions right to practice religion freely. The students are not forced to go there and can get an education elsewhere, so they are not having religion forced on them.
What I don’t understand is why they would want to stay at the school anyway. Catholic teachings say that homosexual relationships (not homosexuality) is wrong. If you want to be Catholic, accept that. If not, don’t call yourself Catholic and don’t attend Catholic school.
And specifically to Serendipity, how are you notbashing my religion? You say conservative Christians have “caveman philosophy” and are “acting like [...] bul[ies] out on the playground. That sounds pretty harsh to me. In fact, I consider such language personally insulting. It’s sort of like when Lily says to Snape (on page 676 American edition) “But you call everyone of my birth Mudblood [...] Why should I be any different?” To insult a class of people is to insult each member of that class, so thanks for calling me, my family, and some of my very good friends Bullies and cavemen. I believe you were talking about respect? Maybe you should take a lesson in it yourself.
Serendipity
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Black Lily,
I apologize. My comment was not meant to be directed at all conservative Christians. It was supposed to be directed at people (and yes, I can be one of them at times) that use such a heavy handed approach. I was attempting, and apparently failing, to make the point that oftentimes, thwacking someone over the head with an idea does more to push people away from the goal that the person may want accomplished rather than to encourage them to listen to the point.
I didn’t mean to insult you or others (in fact a large portion of my family falls into the conservative mindframe). I, as can many people in this world, can get quite passionate in my beliefs. In fact, that is why I put the note at the top, because I can get a bit wrapped up. I will make a note to type my responses and not post them for 1 hour instead of half an hour in the future.
Again, I was speaking specifically about the folks at the heart of this issue, and did not mean to insult you personally.
Amanda
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What no one seems to have said so far, and what bothers me most, is that there was no proof that the students had done anything wrong. They were expelled firstly based on rumor and active imaginations, and more importantly simply for being *accused* of being homosexual.
If they were doing inappropriate things on school property, then sure I understand. But simply for possibly being different you get expelled? Even if you’ve never done a thing out of line while at school? And the worst evidence against you is hearsay and a picture of best friends hugging? That seems more than a bit ridiculous. Their rules state they police behavior on or off campus, so I guess it fits within their Draconian mandate and witch hunting attitudes.
I’m not going to be apologetic for how ridiculous I think this is. I equate it with religion elsewhere in the world that says females should not get an education period because of their religious beliefs. It’s simply wrong. I don’t give a hoot what your religion believes. If it violates basic human rights, it is wrong.
Serendipity
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Amanda,
I agree completely. It is quite like the witch hunts of old, and unfortunately new in places like Africa. People are hurt because someone THINKS they may have POSSIBLY done something wrong.
Unfortunately, the only way that I can see any change being made is if people choose not to stand for it.
Constitutionally, I believe it can stand. If a school receives federal money, it can’t discriminate. However, and here’s the “huh?”, homosexuals are NOT a protected class. Disability? Yes. Race? Yes. Gender? Yes. Not sexual orientation.
The only way to hopefully prevent it from happening to others (whether they are “guilty” or not) is to contact your reps and tell them that it needs to be changed.
andrew
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Adolescents are by nature going through a fragile developmental period of their lives. Adolescents who are discovering that their sexual orientation is something other than heterosexual generally go through an even more fragile period of their life. It is most likely not the students choice to be gay. Though if it were, that would be completely fine.
It is also most likely not the students choice to be attending Catholic school. It is the choice of their parents.
But here they are in a school. And the school rejects them for their sexual orientation. In this particular case they did so with little to no evidence, but so what if they had the evidence? This is a complicated and murky subject because private schools should have certain rights…but abusing the children within those schools should not be one of those rights. The school has no right to punch or whip students. Yet that is precisely what they are doing psychologically to all the students in that school who are questioning their own sexuality. Suicide rates are indeed higher amongst gay adolescents. To be so insensitive to this strikes me as unintentionally abusive.
I do understand that this comes from a religious belief and I do believe that individuals have a right to believe what they want to believe. So long as it doesn’t put others in danger. This action strikes me as putting others in danger.
Again, there are limits to what a school is allowed to do. The school probably couldn’t say they can whip students. The school probably can’t say they can expel students because they are white or black or Latino or Asian or Native American. The school probably can’t say that they can expel students if they are showing signs of heterosexual behavior. So then the question is, what makes being gay different than those things?
Serendipity
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Sadly enough, there is a case currently before the Supreme Court that is testing the boundaries of just how far schools are able to go in order to discipline and keep the kids “in line”. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090116/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_rdp
Talk about leaving scars and be abusive to students. I don’t know how we are supposed to raise healthy children to be healthy adults if we teach them that being themselves, as long as it harms no one else, is a bad thing and that schools are not safe for them.
I know that the situations are different, but the underlying theme to me is safety and security.
So many kids have unsafe homes, shouldn’t the school be a place that they feel accepted?
Looking4aresolution
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Full disclosure: I am a practicing Lutheran and a formally trained ally of the LBGT community. I spent all of my primary and secondary education in parochial institutions.
While I believe that the way the situation was handled by school administration was atrocious, I agree with the court’s decision. Upon entering a parochial school, students almost always have to sign a code of conduct, which can include conduct in regard to sexual relationships– hetero- or homo-sexual. Being a private institution, they have a right to enforce a certain code of conduct in their student body.
There is a distinction between what someone is-their identities of race, gender, sexual orientation-and one’s actions. Many Lutheran synods (and other Christian denominations) recognize that there are legitimate homosexual and bisexual orientations, but do not condone homosexual acts. One can argue that recognizing the orientation, but not the act, is just as bad as not recognizing the orientation-I’m just pointing out that there is a difference between condemning someone for who they are, and for what they do.
I agree with you completely, Andrew, that there needs to be further education about the rights and needs of the LBGT community, especially in religious communities. The high suicide rate of gay adolescents is the reason I became an ally–to be someone who can cross into the realm of a conservative religious environment and do something to make sure that the rights of LBGT individuals are being protected. At the same time, a religion’s rights need to be protected. The best way to do this is to realize that a religion’s tenants are most likely not going to change. Rather we need to change the attitudes of individuals within those institutions that, from my personal experience can be ignorant and hateful, to an accepting one of at least LBGT individuals and their value as human life.
I know that it is easy for people on both sides of these discussions to get very emotional and passionate. Having passion is good. Channeling passion into angry and offensive words only pushes us farther away from being able to understand each other, farther from being able to accept our differences and live along side each other. In this context, drawing comparisons between religious institutions and Salazar Slytherin is offensive language. Debating is natural, and easy. Looking someone in the eye who says something you completely and utterly disagree with and affirm their right to believe that and then present your own position is so much incredibly more difficult. The exception to this is when human life is directly at risk. In an academic discussion setting, such as this, however, we need to respect each others’ rights to opinion, which means using respectful language and presenting our ideas in a calm, rational manner. Otherwise, we have no chance of changing anybody’s minds-of planting the seeds of new thought.
This is quite a long post, but the relationship between religious institutions (including my own) and the LBGT community has been a major concern of my for almost two years now, and this is the closest to a resolution that I have come. I hope some of you found this post helpful or gave you another perspective on the issue.
andrew
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Looking4aresolution,
I think your points here take a very sober look at this situation. You know, a part of me does understand that constitutionally speaking a private school should have a right to do what it wants. But where is that line drawn? I mean, can they expel students based on race? Because if they can’t expel students based on race than I’ve got to say, I don’t think they can expel students based on sexual orientation. In this particular case, they didn’t really have evidence. They went on what feels like it was an Inquisition.
As for the Salazaar Slytherin metaphor, you’re right that it’s unproductive to start name calling. At the same time, Slytherin felt that according to his beliefs only a certain kind of student should be allowed at Hogwarts and all others should feel threatened to leave. So it may make people upset, but it’s not entirely ridiculous analogy. Regardless, it is very important for us all to remember that we are all human beings. We are not Salazaar Slytherins. We are humans. And that’s essential for our understanding and moving toward something good here together.
Looking4aresolution
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Andrew,
I agree with you, the line is very fuzzy, and I agree with you that this situation did seem like an Inquisition. That’s why I think that one of the best ways to combat these sorts of situations is to grow allies in these institutions. We need people like Dumbledore, who defended the rights of all his students to be educated. We can change policy, but for that policy to be practiced, we have to change attitudes.
I also wanted to tell you that I really appreciate all the work you do for HPA. I think that it’s really great that you have provided our fandom with a place where we can discuss these issues in a safe environment. If we can’t express ourselves, we’ll never be able to understand each other, and I think you’ve really fostered a space where such discussions are possible.
All the best,
-Looking4aresolution
andrew
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Looking4aresolution,
I really appreciate you saying that! It means a great deal. I want to just throw out that the HPA is truly an Alliance of so many amazing people in our fandom. Paul DeGeorge of Harry and the Potters as well as my friend and colleague Seth Reibstein founded it with me, my former girl friend Sarah was instrumental in so much of the original plans, Matt Maggiacomo of the Whomping Willows has been extraordinary in a million ways. Melissa Anelli has been beyond incredible. The support of the entire Wizard Rock Community, the Leaky community, Mugglenet, all of this made this possible – as well as Heidi Tandy allowing me to speak last minute at Prophecy. And in the last year now there is our staff and our chapters who without them…..well what they’ve done and continue to do is simply amazing. And then there’s JK Rowling giving us her support on her web site and in Time Magazine and of course making the entire fandom possible. And then most of all there’s people like you who continue to contribute ideas, understanding, and creativity into what we continue to create together. Thank you for this. What we have created and what we are creating is truly magical and truly transformational. Blessings and love, Andrew
asparagus lady
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When I was in school (about 14000 years ago), and it was a public school in farming country, there was a behavior code that prohibited hand holding, waist holding, and other forms of bodily contact while on school premises. Or, as one of my friends paraphrased it, interdigitation, osculation, and… I forget the third. Anyway, the question is: what was displeasing to the authorities and/or other students in the case in point? Those of us who grew up before California mentality took over from the East Coast remember a time when pudeur was a virtue, not a fault. Perhaps “letting it all hang out” is not such a good idea after all – there is something to be said for reservedness. In other words, respect is a two-way street. So what actually happened to make the school authorities react?
asparagus lady
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Sorry. I just realized the answer to my question is in the link at the top of the page. And having now read the article, I remain convinced that discretion is indeed the better part of valor. What we offer up for public consumption can always return to haunt us.
Black Lily
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Thank you Asparagus lady. I think your sort of attitude is refreshingly level headed.
Vanessa
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Should catholic schools be able to expel students for homosexuality? An interesting question, but not really the point.
There was no “evidence” of these two girls being anything but friends! If there was then the question wood in fact be do they have the right to expel them. But because there’s no proof either way, they have no right to expel these girls!